Hi Greg,
My trouble with this tile is yet to begin but thanks for giving it the highest vote that it'll ever see! Say, are you new around here?
Eddie M.

yeah

and I just wanted to say that greg is absolutely cranking out the tiles :) Keep it up, greg!

Jon

A month ago...
LongIslandEddie


2001-10-03 03:10:26
Reply Re: Alighting soon, in my bum tile gallery
Hi Greg,
My trouble with this tile is yet to begin but thanks for giving it the highest vote that it'll ever see!

I thought it was only illegal if you used it for profit, or for self-promotion or the likes... surely not on a medium such as this?

Nope, it's still illegal.. though it seems to be tolerated because so many people break the law anyway. It's tedious to hunt down every last one, so they just go for the people who use it for profit, ect... But I like to encourage ethics among people around me regardless.

Hello Judy,
Gee, you've blown my day! The last thing that I need here is to have Osama's lawyers banging at my back door and threatening me with a lawsuit! How could I ever have believed that a picture of the no.1 fugitive in the world, posted in public domain by the FBI, hung with a five million dollar reward, would not be offered as royalty free artwork. I'll have to brush up on the freedom of information act, I've really blundered here! Well, you could ask Jon or Shaun if they'll let me blacken Osama's eyes there in that postage sized photo or were you refering to the hand? I wonder if I'll get a trickle down, of the five million dollar reward if someone spots my tile and they turn him in? I hope that the Towelban is not surfing tonight again or maybe Al Jazzera will not stop by and view the quilts? Who would you imagine has the rights to that photo, the Afghanis? I used to go out to the mailbox to collect my unemployment check but now I am afraid that they'll track me thru my IP address and send that terrible Anthrax stuff! Did you notice that this tile has been a month and a half hanging out there on the Quilt and you are the only one out of the hundreds here that have taken the time to reach back and help me with this tile and point out the obvious error of my ways? I didn't feel that it was important enough to Osama on the very day that it was sent in, but I guess that this just says a few things about agendas and misjudgements of others. Well, if you can persuade Jon or Shaun to at least hide the quilt, I'll offer the reassurance that I'll work hard at this end to fall into the right mold and to further comb my personality with all of the fervence that I have always had for my artwork. I would have been sure that you might have seen my capacity for adjustment, just the other day and I'm sorry that you felt the need to approach me in this matter.Well, I guess that it's just different strokes, for different folks... Thoughtfully and wishing you success in your quest, I am, Eddie M.

P.S. How could ANYONE ever make the mistake of using the concept or even the word "ethics", when discussing a photo of the most unethical bastard on the planet? Huh

Duh, I'm not talking about the background, I'm talking about the hand holding the American Flag. If you'd visited the link I posted, you would've realized this.

Judy,
Please dear, take another look at each rendition and tell me where the hands differ. Surely you have noticed that although they might, at first glance,appear to be the same rendition, that they are not. I welcome all onlookers, to use that link and to make an equal comparison of these two hands and see if they can see a noticable difference. Have you done this beyond a perfunctory gaze? As to the Flag, well, I think that that still remains free! Thank you and thanks especially for the link which others may also use in making their own comparison. I certainly do appreciate your ongoing efforts to keep both myself and the quilts pure but doesn't that detract from your ability to produce art,the mainstay of this very website? If you want to do a service to all of us, perhaps you might obtain a current edition of United States Copywrite Conventions and post these standards here, for the benefit of everyone. I will never ascede that my primary interest is one of preserving or protecting the commercial interests of artists, for this is a constraint that has one taking the eyes from art and focusing them on law. If I was desirous of persuing the legal profession, I would have gone into law instead of tiling. Which one of these entities calls out from your heart? I have certain feelings that George Bush may be violating a few United Nations mandates in bombing the children and women of Afghanistan but I am not dogging the issue there because I believe that Mr. Bush would not consider my hanging onto his cuff, to be anything more than my own need to point out these failures, before an audience. I take an attitude about a bigger issue than a tile when I breathe a sigh and say, "Who am I to appoint myself or annoint myself as Mr. Bush's conscience" and this declaration frees me up to move ahead in life with the understanding that justice will be served in it's own way, it's own time and thus,I have all the more time to make progress with my own tiles and the things in life that I can effect. I am an alcoholic and have attended AA meetings for better than 20 years. One of my favorite slogans is this simple phrase, "How important is it"? This compacted wisdom is the impetus that brought me to your own tiles as I set my prior feelings aside and voted fairly upon your tiles and sought to bury whatever axes may have been borne of me in regard to previous admonitions to me, on your part. I looked back at the state of correspondance between ourselves, shook my head and said those very words, "How important is is it"? All of those who have remained aprised of your sentiments about plagurizing art or using smudge tools,have seen these issues become disproportionate to the very constructive manner that you may have intended as you voiced your thoughts so early in the game and those with real vision would probably agree that there comes a time when the motivation to persue these issues becomes counterproductive and more self serving than wise. When I see that you go to this great length to make yourself understood to this forum, I can only question your own motivation and compare your fervence with what could be construed as a normal and wholesome outlook with a somewhat veiled interest, partially offered in a constructive vein, and often with the tone and tact of a witch hunter embarked upon an avowed campaign. I have read your pronouncements against those who appear to violate a set of standards which you attain to but I cannot subscribe to the letter which you seek to carry the "law". That would take the fun out of playing the game to that trite level, that has called your attention to my insignificant errors. I certainly accept your comments as advice but cannot understand the persistent with which you offer this advice, that you cannot get the sense that your comments have been heard and acted upon, to the degree that I have or have not acted upon this advice. I will stand upon my previous comment, "How important is it", really. I come to ice.org, to have fun and do not set about to hurt the feelings of others in the hopes of elevating my own image upon this artistic forum, nor to educate them in a personal interpretation or construance of copyright law and it hurts me to think that anyone out there has made a continuing agenda of doing this very same thing.As always, I hope that you understand my own spirit in the manner that you see your own and I certainly thank you for taking the time to hear my point of view.
Fond Wishes to you, Eddie

To me, they are identicaly, with the exception that you removed the ring from her finger. Even the fingernail on the index finger is the same.

Oh and Ed, and I mean this in the most respectful manner possible (so as to not incite a beating), could you not be so long-winded? By the time I get to your point, I've lost complete interest in whatever it was. And I'm confident that I am by far not alone.

ok this is how i see it.
My art teacher in high school said as long as a picture is changed by 30% it's ok; it's not plagiarism. and then seeing as though this a collaborative picture, to be viewed as one entire picture, you can see that the two pictures are completely different when comparing the linked (above) picture with the entire quilt. one picture(linked above)is depicting one hand(wearing a ring)holding up a flag . The quilt depicts two hands, one of which only has four fingers. seems obvious to me. that's at least 30%. you don't wanna argue with my high school art teacher, do you?

btw

Greg, it's only two hands because you made it two hands. :)

yes I know and I had a bitch of a time doing it. anyway, I was saying that you have to count the whole quilt in regards to whether it is like the picture in question. this is a collaborative work. you can't just single out a tile even though that's how they come here. it becomes part of a bigger picture; which is the final piece. know what i mean?
it doesn't matter really though, I'm just being technical. I think there'd be a loophole somewhere because of that.

No, the photographer of that image owns 100% of it, not 70, not 90, not 40.. but 100%, down to the last percent. Now, you may be able to distort it so much that no one would be able to recognize it, but I happened to be surfing on Time's website when I saw that picture and immediately remembered it from this quilt. To me, that constitutes plagiarism. It has nothing to do with the war or Mr. Bush's actions, or that the sky is blue, the grass is green, and birds make chirping noises.

Here's the official US Copyright website... http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
Converted to a link for your convenience. If you can find anything on that website that makes how you created this tile legal, you have my sincere apologies.

Judy,Judy,Judy...
Didn't you see my feeling about all of this, in that simple little statement? "How important is it"! Did I look to elicit any apology from you, I think not. Did I ask you to appoint yourself as my voice of concience? I think not either. Have I even displayed any burning within my conscience in this matter? You have your feelings, I have mine. I don't want to bat terms around with you. I don't want or need to concern myself with pleasing you and subscribing to your application of a law that I am still free to circumvent and to run the risk of paying the price. Name your price hunny. I duplicate a CD from Napster but no one there tries to make a criminal of me. I copy a videotape but I do not look over my shoulder to see who's coming to get me. I often pay for things in cash and we just move the cash without telling Uncle Sam, like a ten dollar tip to the garbage man or twenty five bucks to the landscaper to mow my lawn but I don't feel that I'm screwing the government.I'm not getting rich by posting tiles. It seems that I'm not winning friends by it either. Why can't you just see that I don't give a hoot about infringing on someones 300 pixel hand or not. Was the application here, as heinous or blatant as you've deemed it to be? Was it some kind of a slap to your face? Why must you trot out here and throw shit in my face? Does it make you feel more accomplished? Does it compliment your spirit or does it just tell everyone else out here, how very much you know, how well educated that you are? Is it any skin off of your nose? Has it directly taken any profits from your pocket? Aren't you becoming more concerned here than the artist who first posted that picture out here on the internet? What do you want of me? Do you think that I must make some promise to you, like not to use a fucking smudge tool or use a discretionary piece of clip art, to exist here and ascede to your whims and your interpretations, down to the finite level that you judge me? No, I don't think so Judy, I come here to pass time,to enjoy tiling, playing in my bitmap program and to help others out here to a point that I don't feel, or get, oppressive with that help. I come to make myself happy but if you cannot find that happiness, what do you want from me? Out of the hundred and twenty tiles that I've done here, there can't be more than a handful of them that have bothered you or flaunted the ethics that you harp about. If people like Antaydos don't enjoy what I have to say, or become so intimidated by my words that they cannot think straight, well, that's their problem and not my problem.A wiser person would've just moved along and not felt that his two cents were even necessary much less, even solicited. You can please some of the people some of the time but I see that there's just no pleasing you. Do what you must and I shall do the same but assuredly, it's not to engage you in this meaningless persuit of rules or ethics that I do not care to subscribe to, as stringently as you'd prefer both of us to. You play the game your way and stay out of my game where it will save you the disappointment of finding out that I am not going to remain here, simply to satisfy you or the standard that you seek to hold. Why not just go back to tiling, it's a humble and more soothing thing than chasing windmills. Thank you Greg, for your support but I really don't need it in this regard. Continue to persue self satisfaction without treading upon others to obtain that same satisfaction. Learn the beauty of "live and let live" and you shall learn much. The mighty Oak tree stands strong in the winds of adversity but without the ability to bend, often gets toppled by the wind. The Willow tree bends with the wind and it survives. Tell me, Which one would you rather be?
Eddie M.

This is to skinny

Okay, I meant to write something new but I had to run off to class before I had time to write what I wanted...

PJ makes a valid point, but this isn't clip art.. and occassionally it's okay to use some stock photography, it seems... some people are really good at it. A lot of the time it sticks out too much from the quilt. Then again I think I already told you not to use photos/clipart as it looks profoundly cheap. Not to mention if you're not using stock photography that you're breaking a copyright law somewhere, as harmless as you may think it to be.

If you disregard copyright laws and infringe on them because you think that you have the right to just take whatever happens to be laying out there on the internet, then you are on my bad side, as well as the bad side of countless other artists who persistantly have to hunt down people who use their art or photos without permission. You gain no respect from me with this attitude. In fact, you lose all respect which you had formerly gained after your radical change in personality earlier.

You are not alone in your doings. Many, many people don't even have a clue about copyrights, and use art without realizing they're doing anything wrong. I thought that's what you were doing, and I intended to warn you. There are also people who blatantly break copyright laws, with full knowledge of what they're doing, and they do it over and over again, because most of the time they're never even caught. They may also hate us "copyright nerds" because they think it's a big waste of time, or they think artists make a lot of money and are just feeding off the wealth they receive from all their art, kind of like the record companies do with all their music CDs. This is not the case, however. Many, many artists hardly make a living off their art, and when you infringe on copyright laws by taking their art, it's like taking the food off their table.

But seriously are you for real gecko?

Eddie did a good tile (which happens to have a black line on it's bottom border). Assuming I fully understand whats going on here--theres no way im reading all of that stuff up there--why didn't you or whoever, just check it back out to him?

Everyone makes mistakes..

Now your talking about copyrights..

Where do you find all this energy?

jm

Up until now I believed he was using stock photos, which I have no problem with, unless of course you have to license the photo before you use it... But when I saw this photo at Time's website and remembered it from Ed's tile, I couldn't let it slip by. You can't just take anything from anywhere. By all means, continue to use photos as long as they're from stock, not from major websites like Time. And if you use them from stock, make sure you can trust them. Sometimes people just archive photos illegally and say they're stock.

And I can't delete any of these tiles... the fuzzy mainquilt is the first mainquilt I've been able to administrate on. I'm also an admin on the Escher quilt, but that's all. :)

Judy, isn't this the law?
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include-
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Please dear, read it yourself...

Wow, you actually looked at it. You're stepping up, Eddie. And you didn't reply with a 500 word essay, either. I -am- impressed. You still need to give the artist credit, instead of trying to take it all yourself.

Now guess, which one was Eddie's purpose: "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research". I game it was teaching --- the tile comes in multiple (tnx to HTTP) copies and he's "older than us all" in own words ,-)

Antaydos,
Ennerving to you,eh? You say this as if you were some voice of authority here. Of what authority are you over me? Have you become another voice of conscience too? You may not see photo elements as having any place on this quilt but again, who are you? You're Antaydos, the 19 year old tiler that has dedicated your mission to rousting others. Go back to your tiling son, stop dogging me and get out of my hair. I would like to be able to get along with you but if you can't see this as possible, so be it. What has this issue got to do with the scores of others or their abilities? How do you speak for whatever others see on a tile, who are you and what gives you the right to make assumptions on their behalf? Who have you set yourself up as? Do you really believe that I give two shits whether you are harsh or not, please don't glorify yourself by thinking that I even remotely care. Where is the fairness issue either? Are you saying that I stole the 294 points that I have accumulated? Gee, I'm sorry that you feel that you've "had it" and I certainly hope your despondency doesn't lead to suicide or anything rash! You are "distraught", huh? Well toughen up your hide sonny, it's a cruel and shitty world out there and if you're gonna make it thru, it won't be as the thin-skinned crusader that you've appeared to be here.Where was your indignation a month and a half ago, when this tile was submitted, pal? Or is it simply because you come here now, on Gecko's skirt tail, like a lamprey sucking up to a shark and sharing in her prey? Please Antaydos, don't insult my intelligence with your own long winded diatribe and you may do whatever you want to do, I could really care less.Take my advice son, it's a cruel world out there and you had better button up your overcoat if you hope to survive... Sorry.

jesus christ dude. I feel sorry for you that you have so much anger. I was afraid I'd receive some sort of wicked-tongued verbal beating that you seem so fond of these days. I'm trying to talk to you as a friend, not someone whose mission it is to "roust others".

However, now that I see you have no respect for others' opinions (which is all that I posted), so be it. I'll talk to you no longer. Of course, being the apathetic wise old man that you are, why should this affect you either? Farewell.

Behave, long one, and read posting rules one day. Here: "1. NO FLAMING 2. Don't insult people or art (i.e. 'This image really sucks', 'You're a terrible artist') 3. No trolling (posting something inflammatory to get people to respond in an angry manner)"

P.S.: FIFO rules ;-P

Hmm, maybe we should start an all clipart quilt, and an all copyrighted material quilt? ;) Or maybe the persons that feel an urge to take part in such a quilt can use the code from tiles.ice.org, since it's released as GPL, to create their own quilts somewhere on a server they administer on their own. =)

/Samuelf

>PS. What I wanted to say is that it won't be tolerated for long. Tiles.ice.org is not a right. It's a "privilegie". One that can be taken away very easily. DS.<

Sam, then why don't you just get up there on your high horse and take that "privilegie" away from me, son! Showing up at others tiles to correspond while you beat your gums, is also a priveledge but of course I see that when a priveledge works FOR YOU, you'd evoke that priveledge, in a heartbeat, and by yourself. What brings you out tonight, the taste of blood?

Warm regards son,
Eddie M.

Samuelf,
Consider this:

This has gone too far.
>What's up with this? You guys are taking away the fun out of tiling.Tiles.ice.org is a collaborate project. It's not a place where individualists/anarchists can show that can not and will not follow simple rules.Sure, everyone makes a mistake once in a while, one mistake is no mistake, but after a while it has to be enough. Do we actually have to put those basic, yet obvious, rules in writing?If it's not your creation, don't use it, unless it's for a quilt that has such a theme. The purpose of the Photomanip quilt was to give people who wanted to use their own or free stock photos in a quilt a chance to do so.Just to show that we aren't impossible to reason with. I type "we" as if I was an iCE member, which I'm not, but I've come to feel as a part of this community, and I've been here long enough to grasp the concept and the basics behind the system. I even gained some administrator privilegies along with some of my fellow tilers. Among those is Gecky, a very straight forward person, who is very talented and seldom wrong in her critisism.<

(Gecky is a fine artist as you are Sam, no question about it. Gecky is also a very straight forward person but straight forwardedness is no part of art or copyright law. Her criticism was directed at me and my "circumvention" of the law. I read the law and you read it too. What basis is her criticism founded upon, law or personal preferences? Is America a country of Law or personal preferences? Yes, I thought you'd understand...)

I've also come to count slothy, TonchyZ, yOp[s], antaydos, root88, whirlwind and a few others (Noone left out on purpose) among my friends. There is also a side of iCE which most people don't see... The social part, that isn't just focused on digital or "analog" art... Bleh, I have much more to write, but I don't want this to turn into one of LIE's rants that could've been said with just a few words. Hmm, looks like I blew it...

(Sam, here's the very same side of your social focus, a comment that I added below the last completed mainquilters effort. I know that it's a long rant son, but don't let the words throw you,try and stick with it and see the social side of banging tiles, o.k.?)

LongIslandEddie
(Ed Martin)
302 Posts
2001-11-08 23:49:08
Reply A fine quilt...
Hello fellow artists,
Tonight, while I was able to see the quilt in it's entirety, I was really impressed with the results. It reflects so many hours of dedication and fun and it's come together so nicely. We should all be proud. As I look at America today and perhaps as the oldest participant at ice.org, I see so much more than a sweet collection of pixels, more than the talent of the many hands that have come to join in the work. I see the beautiful spirit that gives this quilt, real meaning, the dedication and cooperation of all those who have taken part in this quilt. I see the warm interplay among souls who will probably never reach to each other beyond these quilts, people who have lives that have been changed during the time that this quilt was being made, people who have found the need to reach out to others with encouragement and with uplifting. I see art which make a greater impact when seen as a collaborative of men and women living here together and finding a peace and harmony of their own, in a world where these very things are not so easily achieved and it often seems that way. We have helped one another, by coming together here and showing the world, that cares to look in at us, that we are one in spirit and we have found unity somewhere in the weave of these tiles. We have something more than the world has and it's a welcome refuge to come here and to add to the quilts. We have a wholesome channel for creative energy, while many in the world have only themselves.Playing with yourself is good but making tiles is better. We have a means of expression, a medium that lets us each feel as though we are someone and not like they often try to paint us,in the other world's domain. We have time and concern for each other and in this little corner of the world we have a special sanctuary. For myself, this website has afforded growth, both as an artist and as a person and I will be forever grateful for the coaching and the moving of my spirit at the hands of all who have deemed me worthy to work with. I'm really feeling good in these bad times because I know that I may not be anyone in Osama's eyes but I sure feel like I'm someone in your eyes. Thank you, to each of you and to the administrators of this quilt and this website. Thank you Jon and Shaun, in particular, for the countless hours of work that you have devoted, to make this place possible, thank you to all those often unseen but who also give of their time. I can't speak for anyone else but myself but I want to say that you have made me happy and most certainly, proud to stand among you. We never really know where life is going to lead us, so while I'm here, and now,I didn't want to forget to tell each of you this...
I have only got a 19"NEC monitor, and when I maximize and fill the whole screen,
as I stare at, as much of this quilt as I can see at one time, I can't help but feel pride, and to see my work out there with yours and feel the full effect of the whole thing, well that's just plain awesome.

Warm wishes to each of you,with heartfelt thanks, Your Friend, Eddie

(Oh Sam, I can see your social commentary too, but that would preclude that your unsolicited addition to this issue, was even remotely intend as good social commentary, but rather an aligning of yourself with the members that have yet to find you worthy of enjoining. The greatest statement of your own retort was as true as any other observation that you make, "Hmm, looks like I blew it".)

Fondly, Eddie...